“DAB is not really suitable for most community stations (costs etc aside) as the coverage is bigger then their target area” – don’t fall into the trap of criticising the technology rather than the organisation of said technology.

DAB is, itself, entirely suitable for community radio stations. As I mentioned in http://james.cridland.net/blog/techcon-a-look-back/ (search for “DAB in a box”) there is a good low-cost solution for DAB that could, if Ofcom were willing, be allocated to community radio. As I ask, “What would happen if two DAB frequencies were simply given to community radio services up and down the country, to run low-power DAB multiplexes themselves? What amazing additional choice we’d have then!”

The frequency space is available (UK DAB only uses half of the available frequencies for DAB as a whole), and I would see it as a real opportunity to add significant additional choice to the UK’s airwaves: something Ofcom is legally mandated to do, let us not forget.

I worry that, should we get an FM switchoff for the main services, that FM will be full of pirates and low-quality crap; yet there will be many people who will not be getting the digital radio signals and only have the choice of community and pirate radio. This is a massive opportunity for community radio, sure, but I feel that radio does lose out.
http://james.cridland.net/blog/let-the-market-decide-the-digital-switchover-question/

Mind: we’ll not get an FM switchoff any time soon, so the worry is slightly moot.

OK I should have said DAB is its current format..

unfortunately I think DAB as you propose would require a large lobbying effort or a interest from government for it to happen.

I would hope that in any freed up FM space we would see community radio, local commercial radio (as long as we dont create another wave of unsustainable commercial stations), and who know about the Pirates, I think peter (from Ofcom) was interviewed as part of a BBC radio doc about pirates last summer and hinted that they could look at regulation depending on a digital migration

I do like the idea of using DRM+ on the FM Band. It does use a lot less bandwidth than the standard analogue FM system (be able to squeeze more stations in other words than we can on FM band right now).

The only thing now is that the equipment is probably quite expensive on the transmission side and there aren’t any consumer friendly DRM+ receivers out there at this current moment.

DRM+ is unlikely to have much consumer success. There aren’t that many receivers or broadcasters and little interest from chipset manufacturers. Even if DRM+ kicked in tomorrow, the lag would likely be a decade before enough people had a device.

Being successful as an FM only station is going to be harder and harder going forward. More and more listeners are tuning in digitally (DAB/DTV/Online) and as analogue sets get replaced your availability to decent sized audiences is going to get smaller and smaller. Clearly, this isn’t going to happen tomorrow, but I see it being similar to how people have gradually reduced their AM consumption.

DAB frequency clearance is going to be a significant issue for mini muxes and Ofcom would probably be minded to make capacity available commercially. So i’m not sure it’s a go-er.

I absolutely understand the issues for community radio getting on DAB. But at the same time it, (and maybe DAB+ in a few years) is going to be the best opportunity for audience growth for new radio stations moving forward.

The mini muxes isnt just a community radio issue, its also for those smaller commercial stations that dont want the burden / cost or anything to do with a bigger audiences, like UKRD etc

Ofcom has found the way for the Local TV so I dont understand why they wouldnt be able to find the way with local DAB.

I think for alot of community stations it would be the cost factor, I have had £20k – £50k per year quotes as a possible cost for DAB (and that excludes licenses), thats double what some small stations have to run their FM.

Bare in mind there are nearly 200 community stations, I dont see where they would get spectrum anyway, the government talks of a digital road map, that seems to have completely forgotten about the fastest growing sector of radio.

I’d see Ofcom as gifting community radio with two nationwide DAB frequencies, for them to organise for themselves. With two nationwide frequencies, you could put every local community radio service on-air on DAB without any issue; and the open-source transmission infrastructure means that to run your own multiplex (cosited with your FM) could be extremely minimal.

Martin – I agree local multiplexes will be two big for some operators, though I don’t agree that’s necessarily an issue for smaller commercial operators. Many that i’ve spoken to would like to go from being a town service to a county service.

Whilst Ofcom have ‘found’ space for TV, it doesn’t necessarily have any link to radio. Community digital TV is a project driven by a Minister directly.

£20k-50k is what you would need to pay to be on a DAB multiplex. They cost money for an operator to run. If it’s a public policy desire for their to be community radio it is up to government etc to fund that expansion (as they do to some degree with the community radio fund already).

James – I don’t think there is any chance whatsoever of two nationwide DAB frequencies being allocated to community radio.

I don’t think anyone should have, particularly, a ‘right’ to exist on any platform. The government has also said that FM will still be around for small ILR and community stations to exist on.

Matt – I do agree that Local digital TV (difference between local and community is that the local TV services can be for profit) that is driven as a pet project by a minister who doesnt seem to have any inclination to grow and develop community radio / or radio at all.

I understand the money for a multiplex operator but what James (I think) and myself are suggesting is that community stations / ILR’s could sort themselves out maybe with that open-sourced technology, this would greatly reduce the running costs for stations.

FM will be around for a long time for ILR and community radio, but you said yourself being successful and growing as a FM only staton is going to get harder and harder, and thats why there needs to be serious considerations for routes to DAB for community stations.

But I do think this can only happy with direct will and intervention from ministers / government.

> I understand the money for a multiplex operator but what James
> (I think) and myself are suggesting is that community stations
> / ILR’s could sort themselves out maybe with that open-sourced
> technology, this would greatly reduce the running costs for
> stations.

Obviously i’m biased (as a Mux operator) but I don’t necessarily thing the DAB-in-a-box is a perfect/the ridiculously cheap solution that people hope it will be.

Also – how would something like Manchester work? Or even Bournemouth with a couple of community stations. If you mux a few up then the costs are going to escalate.

Additionally there are lots of issues with clearing frequencies (even a couple) in different parts of the UK.

What about Ofcom buying a community radio channel on each local mutiplex and then licensing bits of it out to people – Spectrum Radio-style. That way – good coverage, on a growing platform, with higher quality content (through competition for the spots) – which would be fine for location-based services and even better for community-of-interest operators.

“What about Ofcom buying a community radio channel on each local mutiplex and then licensing bits of it out to people – Spectrum Radio-style. That way – good coverage, on a growing platform, with higher quality content (through competition for the spots) – which would be fine for location-based services and even better for community-of-interest operators.”

Can I just check (as I would freely admit you know more about this than me), that you mean breaking a local mux up into smaller areas on that one channel? Or do you mean just bulk buying in the hopes that it would be cheaper? but still covering the large multiplex area.

Take Diverse for example, our only possible option at the moment is London, or in the future the possible Herts, Beds, Bucks and Northampton one.. all cover an area far to large really for us.

No – one channel on an existing multiplex is allocated to community radio – covering the whole area (like any other channel). Different operators then can do different timebands on it.

On the other hand mini muxes aren’t such a bad idea for community radio. There is plenty of content to use up the left over slots if there aren’t enough community radio stations in the area. They could be used for special event stations as well, match day stations for nearby sporting clubs….

It’s only come to me right now that I came across a web site long time ago with a very cost effective way of transmitting DRM+ in maybe a similar way that you demonstrated at TechCon. I’ll send you a link to the site if you want to have a look James.

Another note is that DRM+ can be used in Band I as well as Band II (or FM Band more commonly known).

A problem using it on the FM Band is that if you have ever listened to a digital signal through a analogue receiver it just sounds like white noise. So pirate FM stations might be tempted to transmit over that signal completely ignoring the fact that there is a signal present.

Hence why it might be more effective to use DRM+ on Band I (64.5MHz) like they trialled it in Paris.

I’m not trying to dismiss the DAB system. I think it an excellent system to use but the use of DRM+ in conjunction with DAB may help speed up the switch over from analogue to digital radio.

DRM+ is brilliant technology; and since it shares a lot with DAB, it is exceptionally well suited to European broadcast. It is much better for community radio than DAB, since it avoids the need for multiplexing, and re-uses existing frequencies. (DRM+ is already available on exactly the same kit that was demonstrated at TechCon.)

But it’ll take at least ten years to get a large amount of receivers in the market: a number of those years in a poor economy: and doubtless, by then there’ll be something else available. I don’t believe that anyone has the appetite for DRM+.

As ever, the discussion isn’t just one about technology: it’s one about the marketplace too – a part of the discussion that is regularly missed by technologists.

You probably know what I mean then. Very flexible kit.

I agree it is the marketplace, if you can’t sell the DRM+ system to major manufacturers then you would probably struggle to get it out there.

The listening experience to community radio on FM isn’t exactly the greatest right now. Stations run on low power from transmission sites that aren’t brilliant means the in-car experience in particular is poor. The same goes for a lot of smaller commercial stations, although the issues aren’t as great. As someone in community radio, this is a more pressing issue for me than some hypothetical digital switchover at some point in the future.

Areas with a number of community radio operators could quite easily support a local DAB multiplex. Greater Manchester, for instance, has eleven community stations, each with their own transmission infrastructure. I’d hazard a guess that with DAB penetration increasing daily, replacing each of those weak FM transmitters with one Manchester-wide DAB transmission would actually increase listening to each station, and result in cost savings and greater revenue. The stations would be easily discoverable, listed alongside Key 103 and Radio 2, and reception would be stable.

Stations that aren’t in an urban “cluster” are a more difficult problem. James is right in that DRM and its friends are a red herring and CMFE are heading down the wrong garden path—it’s taken this long for DAB to get where it is, and anyone introducing a DRM transmission in a small town will likely be talking to himself, even if you could buy receivers.

With the lack of frequencies in a lot of areas, including my own, we’re seeing an interesting development. Crewe, a town in Cheshire where Ofcom have said frequencies won’t be available in the next round of FM licensing, has two online-only community stations, The Cat and Red Shift Radio, which have supported themselves for nearly two years—Red Shift is profitable. Stoke-on-Trent is in a similar situation, and Six Towns Radio there is running successfully online. Canalside Radio, also in Cheshire and suffering poor FM reception, has recently launched a second online-only station offering youth programming.

I certainly don’t think the current situation in the UK on FM, with weak community stations suffering poor reception and interference from neighbouring areas, is sustainable. The listening experience is just unpleasant and it’s the root cause of some of the station closures we’re seeing. Then again, streaming is only part of the answer too—3G reception in the same rural areas where FM struggles is non-existent.

I love community radio, and I want to see it succeed (quite apart from it being my living!). I think a combination of DAB in urban areas, and FM and streaming in rural areas, could be the future. But I always hope some new technology we haven’t thought of yet could be around the corner.

On the other hand mini muxes aren’t such a bad idea for community radio. There is plenty of content to use up the left over slots if there aren’t enough community radio stations in the area. They could be used for special event stations as well, match day stations for nearby sporting clubs….

In some areas you could conceivably get the community multiplex full just by using what is there already, assuming ten stations a multiplex, and then taking somewhere like Nottingham as an example…

1. Faza (Community Radio)
2. Dawn (Community Radio)
3. Kemet (Community Radio)
4. Erewash (Community Radio)
5. Fly FM (Student Radio – NTU)
6. Norman (Student Radio – NTU)
7. URN (Student Radio – UoN)
8. NGenious (Local new music station – online only)
9. Trent Sound (Local classic hits station – currently an RSL
10. SNCR (Part-time College Radio) – Could easily share with BBC Radio Nottingham football opt-outs for instance.

Heck, if they were to start such a local community radio multiplex I might be able to listen to those stations at work in Nottingham City Centre, can’t be doing with the constant buffering on 3G or WiFi drop outs (try finding a clear channel when there are 30 WiFi networks available in the office!)

Some areas would be a bit harder to fill, but could still have a fair amount of services, e.g.

Central Lancashire
1. Preston FM (Community Radio)
2. Chorley FM (Community Radio)
3. The Bee (Commercial Radio)
4. Dune FM (Commercial Radio)
5. Frequency (Student Radio – UCLAN)
(BBC Radio Lancashire sport opt-outs)

As it stands at present the local stations not on DAB are just getting lost – my parents have given up with both The Bee and Preston FM as auto-tune fly’s past them when you are in the car (yet stops on BBC Cymru and Wave 96.5!), and at home the reception is iffy at best and requires changing the input on the radio as unlike BBC Radio 2, BBC Radio Lancashire, Real Radio and Magic they aren’t on DAB

I don’t think DAB will be the answer. The sound quality is inferior and the technology is dated. Crucially, if you consider the turnaround time from introduction to analogue switch-off for digital television, it makes DAB appear to have missed the boat somewhat.

I think we’ll see IP win out, providing 4G and WiFi meshes are introduced over the next 5-10 years. Cars with SIM cards in, and sets like the Roberts Stream 83i I got for Christmas will be commonplace.

Then it’ll be quite easy for anyone to enter the community sector!

The sound quality is inferior

It’s miles better than the static and multipath infested quality you get on FM…

WRT to TV DSO – well most of Europe was floundering on that one, until ITV Digital went belly up and Freeview rose from the ashes giving a large European country (and therefore market) the impetuous to go through DSO and others the ability to follow (thanks to low costs sets) – let’s face it the likes of Norway, Netherlands, Belgium, and Portugal are hardly going to go through a DSO on their own – needs a few of the biggies to commit to it first (i.e. UK, France, Germany, Italy) and the rest eventually follow.

On the radio side Germany is finally under way on it’s analogue switch off (a load of MW transmitters being closed down in the coming weeks) after a re-launch of their DAB platform this year, with France due to relaunch their digital radio platform soon. If anything the TV DSO has delayed the Radio one – Germany finished it’s a couple of years ago and is now investing in DAB (a second national multiplex already on the way as the first is oversubscribed – where’s Digital 2? – we want Absolute Radio 30s ;) )

As for IP – I really can’t see it.

WiFi as a national network is a none-starter – the frequencies it uses are too high to get indoor penetration and as it’s all on licence free frequencies there is way too much interference about. Trying to find clear channels in city centres, and even the suburbs, is becoming difficult and there doesn’t appear to be any frequencies it could expand into (until FM radio switch off anyway). I also can’t see how, without rolling out a new version of the standard, roaming will ever work successfully. WiFi’s strength is allowing people to access their own networks – the coffee shop/hotel access really is a bolt on and it’s complete unfriendlyness really illustrates that!

4G does show some promise, but lets face it fully national coverage is going to take a while (A decade after launch for example T-Mobile probably has less of Northern Ireland covered with 3G than Digital 1 does and only the former is licenced to serve the province) – those rollouts have taken the best part of a decade to get where we are now, and even on major trunk routes the signal drop outs are more frequent than DAB – and the telcos have a commercial reason to work towards blanket coverage which radio doesn’t (i.e. people in isolated areas with no DAB or FM signal can use satellite to get the radio at home, but will use a rival telco). It’s going to be 2012 before any UK rollout starts and based on GSM and 3G rollouts will take the best part of a decade to come to fruition.

With internet radio there is also way too much choice – you end up listening to the same stations you would on FM and DAB and those are way easier to find.

Where IP may work well is in the home though – e.g. on a combined FM/DAB/IP surround sound system you tune to BBC Radio 3 and it says “would you like to try BBC Radio 3’s Surround Sound trial?” and then connects to that via IP, or tuning to Absolute Radio and when a Stones track comes on it allows you to tune to Absolute Radio 60s with a single button press – using Bauer Central Lancs in Lancashire, and IP here in Nottinghamshire. Colour eInk screens would be really handy here (consume less power and don’t light the room like a light house) – would be ideal for Radio Slideshow and DLS text. Then again if IP radio is anything like my Stremium it might pass most people by (i.e. convoluted button presses to save favourites, not working with my router due to incompatible encryption methods, and regular drop outs).

Personally I would like a presets system that means preset 6 is Absolute Radio 60s, 7 is Smooth Radio 70s, 8 is Absolute Radio 80s, and 9 is Absolute Radio 90s wherever I am (i.e. at my parents all via DAB, here Absolute Radio 60s via the web) – but doesn’t rely on the likes of Philips keeping their (awful) Streamium site running forever – the broadcast platforms do seam to be able to offer this to a certain degree (does Radio DNS provide internet stream “Alternative Frequencies”?). Even better if multiple people can be added and switched with a single button press – e.g. Dad taps his face and it switches to BBC Radio Lancashire and offers his presets, Mum taps her face and switches to Magic and offers her preset, sis taps her face and it switches to BBC Radio 1 and offers her presets etc – even neater if it can link with NFC (i.e. I tap my phone next to an alarm clock radio in a hotel and it adds me and my presets until I check out). Not sure if something like NFC (i.e. I save my profile to the phone and tap the radio to update) or an online profile on a system run by multiple radio groups (e.g. an international version of Radio Player) would be the best way of doing this – of a combo of the two – e.g. press “Add Person”, tap phone, connects to internet and downloads your presets.

Even then I’m not too convinced – most of the “connected” TV’s I’ve come across are disconnected from the internet – the only way I can see that changing is for no-config PLN to become standard – but how would you make that secure?

>(does Radio DNS provide internet stream “Alternative Frequencies”?).

Yes, it does. There’s a part of the RadioEPG specification that allows a station to define all the “bearers” that the station is available on. That would allow you to tell a radio your stream location(s), your broadcast frequencies, DTV channels and so on, along with some indication of preference from the broadcaster side. It’s then up the receiver to decide (probably with user preferences) which bearer to use to get the station. The demonstrations that have been done in the UK, Europe and US show that the process can be fairly seamless. (There’s additional information to help the receiver correct for latency differences between bearers).

It’s likely we’ll split this function off into a new specification (tentatively nicknamed RadioESG) so that you can more obviously provide this information without also providing Schedule information.

Some good points made there, but…

“(DAB sound quality is) miles better than the static and multipath infested quality you get on FM…”

As opposed to gargling, mushy stereo image (if it even is stereo) and in many cases, a low frequency cut-off due to low bitrates being used?

DAB is OK, but as a replacement for FM it’s seriously flawed. The way the system operates is also very wrong.

As opposed to gargling, mushy stereo image (if it even is stereo) and in many cases, a low frequency cut-off due to low bitrates being used?

All the mono DAB stations in this neck of the woods have no analogue equivalent (or if they do it’s MW only) so yet it’s better than what we have already – however I guess that isn’t really your point!

DAB can, and in some cases, does offer broadcasts which match FM – the BBC National Stations being a prime example (although admittedly the only stations I can get in cleanish stereo on analogue are Capital FM (which is compressed to hell and seams to have no stereo seperation anyway) and BBC Radio Nottingham) so a direct comparison is impossible here – BBC Radio from Belmont is weak and suffers from multipath so it probably make it sound worse than it is – Sutton Coldfield suffers even worse from multipath dispite being a bit stronger so is more irritating to listen too)

The ONLY station I have noticed which gets worse on DAB is Kerrang! (which is quite frankly a disgrace and should be turned off if they can’t do any better) – Every other time I have heard the radio switch from FM to DAB the stereo separation has [b]improved[/b] and the quality is sharper – Both Rock FM and Smooth Radio East Midlands are prime examples of this.

Which FM may theoretically be able to achieve more, in practice DAB actually achieves this.

Am I a fan of all the new stations being mono-only, of course not – however now is not the time to throw the baby out with the bath water and start again. For most uses where IP is less than ideal the stereo mix doesn’t matter too much so the mono will do, and if a hybrid platform does come standard (including DAB+) then it provides a future pathway for the likes of Absolute Radio 90s to switch to stereo on DAB+ – but as nearly all the radios in the shops are DAB only that isn’t likely to happen any time soon.

Folks: if there is any chance we can move any “DAB is rubbish” generic discussion to its own thread, I’m sure that would be appreciated…